What is a T/C?4. R-12 is no longer used or produced in many countries and remaining quantities have skyrocketed in price. But R22 is almost equally damaging. The AC usually does not work at all. The R134a compressor has a 1/8" step in on the high side port. evarporator, expansion valve plus flushing out the full system and replacing all the o rings. We suggest dumping the old refrigerant oil in a clean container and inspect the oil for sludge or waxing (old oil that has gelled) and contamination (metal particles). This refers to BTU's (heat) moved per pound of refrigerant moved. Plus, not releasing the chemical into the air is morally justifiable. -The amount of R-134a needed will typically be 80-90% of the R-12 charge. Nevertheless, if your application is configured only for R12, then you can use it or consider replacing the applications engine. The chemical composition of R12 and R134a differ. The next piece of equipment to track down leaks is a leak sniffer. Participate in over 40 different forums and search/browse from nearly 3 million posts. The only difference I can imagine would be the recharge connection. It is common for eurocar threads to go multiple pages, and as Nick points out - sometimes cool is all you will ever get. How to Convert R12 to R22 | eHow 37 in 2005 tacoma, R134A. = R134a Charge Level. Edited: Sat July 14, 2007 at 10:22 PM by fonebone. Blows pretty hard on full. Components Coils, Heaters, Motors, etc. Sense ells no existirem. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." What effect would it have on performance, if any? First, differences in physical properties: 1, insoluble R12 compressor oil is used (to reduce the lubricant) 2, dissolved sealing materials are used (resulting in refrigerant leakage) 3, easy to damp (so easy to internal . The value of carbon dioxide is 1. R134a is called tetrafluoroethane (HFC). I recommend replacing the expansion valve when you do the swap. This is because R134a. PDF COMPARISON OF Rl34a AND R12 REFRIGERANTS IN A VAPOUR - AIVC Typically 5 to 6 ounces of a/c oil is adequate but this may vary depending upon the car. R12 to 134A conversion. | Allpar Forums In short, NO! One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. Also, if you want to know what happens if you put R134a in an R12 system, you should first confirm if the R12 system can be replaced or if the refrigerants can be mixed. Is there a difference between a R134a expansion valve and an R12 TXV? B. Accessories Pumps, Cooling Towers, Evap Condensers, etc, Components Valves, Motors, Condensers, Evaporators, etc, Duct Systems Design, Installation & Practice, Piping Systems Design, Installation & Practice, Control System Design, Installation & Practice, Pro's Forum: National Electrical Code (NEC), Pro's Forum: Calculations & Electrical Theory, Pro's Forum: Electrical Business & Marketing. The bad thing is I don't know what to do about it. Biggest you can fit in there is best. With R-12, 30 is 28.4psi and 40 is 36.9psi, for a difference of 8.5psi. The aux fan seems to be working fine - it switches on occassionally. R134a has a smaller molecule than R12 so R134a will leak out sooner than R12. For instance you can evacuate FRIGC FR-12 into a refrigerant recovery bottle that has R134a in it or visa versa. look at the difference! Even with proper fan operation, missing seals & air dams can effect condensor effeciency. On the other hand, R12 has a global warming potential of 10,910. Osuagwu Solomon is a certified mechanic with over a decade of experience in the mechanic garage, and he has over five years of experience in the writing industry. The experimental values of C.O.P.H obtained with the R134a/ester charge were 20.2% At 2000rpm, windows open, highest fan, hi pressure stabilized at 225 psi, low 25psi.Ambient 81F, vent 61F. Expansion valves are an active device, they regulate the flow of refrigerant to the evaporator depending on evaporator temperature. sparkee said: Thanks for the Service Bulletin. Make sure to get the R12 EXP valve if that is the way you go. maintain the A/C of older cars. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve Could that be screwing up the systems performance?Anyway, when I installed the system, the new TXV (is that short for expansion valve?) -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." Anyone know what happens when an R12 expansion valve is used in a system charged with R134A? What is needed? The problem with not being an expert is that you don't know what is important and what's not. It won't be optimal, though.On some/many valves, you can adjust them, but that might make matters worse unless you really know what you're doing (which I don't!).RegardsGeorge. (You must log in or sign up to reply here. It is usually sold under the brand name, Freon 12. However, R12 refrigerants are still used as fire retardants in aircraft and submarines. Well, I'm not sure it is 'fine' - it doesn't cool very well in 95F weather. 3 ounces? Inhalation of vapor: Inhaling a large amount of R134a vapor can lead to drowsiness, temporary nervous system depression, and lethargy. How about evacing 1 pound of refrig from the system, and then putting 1 lb of pure R12 back in? The crossover point is approximately at 64F. R134a requires a different oil. Autor de l'entrada Per ; Data de l'entrada calexico west port of entry hours; 12 month libor rate 2021 a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve The crossover point is approximately at 64F. I'm just trying to help you avoid headaches in the long run. Gain access to our free AOP (Ask a Professional) Section to get real answers for your questions. Hence, the effect of R12 on global warming is up to 10,000 times higher than carbon dioxide. Is that why expansion valves are specific to R12 or R134A? PDF Experimental analysis of Thermostatic expansion valve, Constant If your cars system has a sufficient condenser design and air flow to expel the greater amount of heat extracted by R134a, then by all means you should convert over when the time comes. Most importantly, the oil used in the plant must always be compatible with the refrigerant used. It would make a big difference at idle ,in traffic!! In sum, R12 has done more bad than good. A. Pressure/temperature table for R12, R134a, and R513A is shown in Figure 1. . Put a relay on the compressor clutch to the aux fan (I like that idea - makes a lot of sense)How does that sound? Hopefully after you have read this entire page you will have enough information to determine which type of refrigerant is best for you. R12, on the other hand, has an ozone depletion potential of 1, implying that it can damage the ozone layer. Poc temps desprs van decidir unir els dos webs sota el nom de Xarxa Catal, el conjunt de pgines que oferirien de franc sries doblades i/o subtitulades en catal. Boiling Point: R134a refrigerants boiling point is -26.3C (-15.34F). What was the ambient when you took that reading?Jumpering the aux fan is a common thing here in the desert. PaulJerky King -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. When the sensor detects the refrigerant leak the sniffers lights glow and the sniffer makes a noise. I've straightened the fans I can and sprayed simple green on it, let it soak then hosed it down well. The only difference I can imagine would be the recharge connection. Remember, being aluminum, they lower the temps better, and do not pass off as much heat to the radiator, which then makes it's job easier and lowers underhood temps (besides lowering vent temps inside the car). R12 and R134 are of different chemistry. Read on for more information about using automotive r134a in a refrigerator and vice versa. 05-25-2017 02:14 AM. Some cars have both an engine coolant temp switch & a refrigerant temp switch, others only the refrigerant switch. The oil used in R12 and R134a are different and not compatible. Consider using the newer valve, even with 134a stamped on the valve. Theres no problem with using R134a in a home air conditioning system because it is a hydrofluorocarbon that doesnt cause environmental harm. R-12 vs R-134a Hose - Pelican Parts Forums On this website we are addressing only R134a and not other suggested drop in replacements. Next I'll jumper the aux fan. RULES for AOP - Owner Assistance and Contractors, Energy Efficiency and Building Performance Discussion NEW, Carnak Zone/Locked Areas - For Professional Member Only, How To Become a Pro and Rules For Pro Members, Pro Forum: Refrigerants and EPA regulations **NEW, Pro Forum: Residential Refrigeration and Appliances **NEW, Pro Forum: Equipment Recalls and Bulletins **NEW, Pro's Forum: Building Science Discussions, Educational Forums - Open for all in the industry, Welcome to HVAC-Talk's Educational Forums, How to Submit Links, Articles and Quiz Questions, Frequently Asked Questions About Submissions, Physics, Thermodynamics, Fluid Flow and Combustion, Educational, Training & Reference Information, Manufacturer's Technical Information Links, Electrical Theory, Circuits and Electronics, HVACR Equipment, Components & Accessories, Accessories Humidifiers, Air Cleaners, HRUs, Fans, Filters, etc. How is 1234yf different from . We've updated our forums!Click here to visit the new forum, Year: 1983Make: MercedesModel: 240DEngine Size: 2.4Refrigerant Type: R12Ambient Temp: 90Pressure Low: 35Pressure High: ?Country of Origin: United States, Hi, this is my first post, so please take it easy on the noob. . Then again, there are two different expansion valves. If he is not in the garage fixing challenging mechanical problems, he is writing automotive repair guides, buyers guides, and car and tools comparisons. Best for varieties of operating conditions: Its boiling point is -21.6 Celsius. We say generally because the vehicle manufacturer may have a formula already worked out for the R134a conversion process. Any advice appreciated. Also, it can be used with all types of compressors. At 40, it is 35psi, which is a difference of 8.9psi. Yep, definately not a meat locker. I don't know where it is getting the switch off command, or why the vent temp drops steadily. Neuro spine Super Speciality Clinic - Above Apollo Pharmacy, Bangarpet Circle, Kolar - Bangarpet Road, Kolar Town. The expansion valve(Tx) is in the car at the inlet line to the evaporator with compressors you best get advice from an ac specialist shop as the differences could be the gas that it pumps some systems use R12 and others use R134a or later gas yes R1234yf Freon gas can be replaced by R134a; the newer systems were designed with this in mind so no, there will be no damage to the compressor but some time in . Thread starter goldNSX; Start date 1 August 2009; Tagged . The butylcellusolve or the citrus solvent will dissolve the carcass in a few minutes. You can buy bulk hose, and the proper fittings, then have them crimped off the vehicle.Be sure that no air bypasses the new condensor on the way to the radiator. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve 4.R404A R134a increased mass transfer resistance to reduce the transmission chamber heat coefficient, while R507 heat transfer coefficient is higher than R404A. The system has been previously converted to R-134a. This is the part that controls the system pressures. R134a refrigerant fittings are different size. As per their results . So the steps involved are cleaning out the old oil, replacing all the O-rings, replacing the dryer, replacing the expansion valve, and converting the high and low side connectors from Schrader to quick connect valves. PDF R134a R513A - Tecumseh Products The ozone depletion potential of a chemical is a factor that shows the level of degradation itll cause to the ozone layer that surrounds and secures the earth from harmful radiation. I'm thinking of jumping the temp switch and leaving the fan on to see how it does. R-134a XV for R-134a use. 3) A TXV optimized for 134a will be ok with R12. R134a Refrigerant Recharge Kit with BPV31 Bullet Piercing Valve and R134a Quick Coupler, R134a/R-12/R-22 Freon Refrigerant Hose Can Tap Kit for A/C System - Easy to use. But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. Mark Baker R-401b is the mixture by weight of 61% R22, 11% R-152a and 28% of R-124. of refrigerant insulation tape. The money you will save by will pay for the R12. R12 or R134a - 928 Owners Club Forum So I probably put the highest suggested amount in to be safe. Even if the system leaks, repairing the leaks and recharging it with R-12 is usually the best repair alternative. Whether R134a performs as well as R12 in any given a/c system depends upon system components and the amount of R134a used. Thanks again. It can be used applications like walk-in coolers, food and dairy display cases, domestic refrigerators, and beverage dispensers and vending machines. If the system was upgraded by a professional it should have an upgrade sticker. I'll put the relay on for that. To prevent refrigerant loss you should consider replacing your old hose lines with barrier type hose. R134a has an ozone depletion potential of 0, implying that it has a slight effect on the ozone layer. You will be fine with a 134a-compatible TXV running R12. This is a great space to write long text about your company and your services. One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. We sometimes use a relay switched from the compressor clutch to run fans. Not going to mess up your 'do, but you can feel it. They would then make short "jumper hoses" to connect to the existing stock hoses, refit your old fan if there is a "pusher" fan, and recharge to specs. B. Right now you know you have a bit too much, but with a CR4P compressor this is an insurance policy. Hmmmm. . CONCLUSIONS The differences in the theoretical C.O.P.H calculated for R12 and R134a are consistent with values quoted in the literature. The major reason for the replacement of R12 with R134a was to curb future greenhouse effects. VerticalScope Inc. All Rights Reserved. I'm curiousSo there is work to do, ie performance should be able to be improved. R134a compressors are substituted as new to retrofit the R12 system compressor part numbers with different height sealing washers. Look at where the lines will end up. That switch should close @ 52c. You'll want the expansion valve matched to whatever refrigerant you're using. If you have the work done, be sure you find a true "A/C" shop that can make up lines. Recovery & flushing is the only way out of an oil overcharge in your vehicle.B. I'm putting r12 back in my system, but all of the valves I can for the application (1990 jeep grand wagoneer) say r134a on them. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. However, theyre still used in older plants, systems, and the automotive industry. Make sure to wear safety gloves, goggles, and shoes when theres a possibility of exposure to the chemical (R134a). They examined the two configurations of capillary tubes i.e. With the A/c off hi and lo were both at 105psi. Your decision could be made based on economics, environmental concerns, or both. R12, on the other hand, is called chlorofluorocarbon (CFC). There are two hoses listed, R-12 64-53-1-377-821 for $72.50, and R-134a 64-53-8-391-051 fro $262.50. Look deep into the fins. It will work and there will be very little, in any difference in performance.As Chick stated, the difference is only the gas used in the sensor tube. link to How to cut off a Catalytic Converter. hardly noticable. Pray I can let some oil out of the compressor without losing my precious R12. We mention using ester type refrigerant oil. You should keep in mind that recharging your air conditioner improperly could result in more serious damage. Unfortunately, the R12 refrigerant doesnt always blow cold air. R134a has a smaller molecule than R12 so R134a will leak out sooner than R12. Also, they are mostly used in refrigeration and automotive air conditioning systems. R12 to R134a change expansion valve? - HVAC-Talk: Heating, Air If there is no pusher fan, and you have the room, put one in. After the optimum refrigerant charge is determined the car should be test driven to check for performance of the system. If you have 10 ounces of oil in the system, that is contributing to the poor performance as well. If the charge is low the compressor will cycle on/off in the max AC position. UNDERSTANDING A/C Everything You Need To Know - Classic Auto Air I would suggest you do stay away from R-134a since with the hot gas bypass of your system (if it is to be just as the original) extremes of temperature and pressure will be very hard on your compressor and the rest of the system. A slow loss of cooling at city speeds is usually related to condensor capacity & airflow issues. Comparatively, larger R134a molecules should take more space, and a smaller amount might be required. Paul:It is never a waste of my time to chat with someone that understands the problem, and wants to fix it. The R134a compressor has a 1/8" step in on the high side port. Carefully study the chart and compare the following: To a large extent, the choice is up to you. Attach the R134a charge port adaptors, there are two types.. one of which you need to remove the old R12 valve cores. A/C systems designed to use R-12 will cool best when charged with R-12 refrigerant. R1234yf is more environmentally friendly and has a global warming potential of 4. . R134a and R12 are among the most popular types of refrigerants. I dont know why the cost difference between compressors is so huge, though. The only material difference between automotive A/C and a window A/C unit or refrigerator is that in the home application, the components are all inside the same rectangular box, but in the automotive application, the components are distributed throughout the car. R12 Expansion Valve with R134A charge? - Maverick R12 Expansion Valve = 201 830 06 84 R134A Expansion Valve = 201 830 04 84 Is there a difference after all? #19. R12 can move more heat than r134 so when it isn't very hot and the system isn't maxed out you wont be able to tell the difference but when its 110 out and the inside is 140 R12 will cool the cabin temp faster. Besides R134a there are some other refrigerants that are approved to replace R12 and there is a long list of refrigerants that are not approved. The OEM spec is 2300 rpm @ 12.6v (engine stopped fully charged battery). asia pacific stevie awards 2021. gin, amaretto cocktail. This is not to say that one of these small retro-fit kits cant be used, however to be used wisely. These two refrigerants are the older types and are not used in newer refrigeration and air conditioning systems. Als nostres webs oferimOne Piece,Doctor Who,Torchwood, El Detectiu ConaniSlam Dunkdoblats en catal. Safe but sorry! The most common influences which effect the capability of R134a to perform well are the condenser, in some cases the the superheat setting of the expansion valve or the amount of R134a. Theres no doubt that R12 refrigerant is one of the first compounds manufactured for the air conditioning and refrigeration world, but it had to be banned. The ARPA Zone/Open Membership Discussion Forums. #4. If not, you just don't know unless a test is performed. PDF Tecumseh Guidelines for Utilization of R134a Temp switch works the aux fan. That's a lot isn't it? A final difference is that most (though not all) R-1234yf cars will have a Suction Line Heat Exchanger. What is a good differential? Energy usage: R134a is less efficient in cooling compared to R12. I'm also thinking maybe I should go to R134 - it might work better with the right amount of oil and the correct expansion valve. R134a and R12 are both refrigerants used in vehicle air conditioning systems. Can I order a valve based on the original eaton number? There are R134a specific valves that operate at a slightly different pressure, but not for any "old" automotive application that I'm aware of. He started writing automotive articles to share his garage experience with car enthusiasts and armature mechanics. The Wikipedia explanation for expansions valves cited in Frank's thread says that the gas inside the bulb in the metering valve is the same as the refrigerant in the system. Expansion Valve Differences R12 vs R134 - Automotive Air Conditioning But R22 is almost equally damaging. $21 . I don't have the FSM matrix handy for that 123.123, but a 123.133 shows a test rpm of 2,000 - and vent temps between 54f & 66f at 91f to 95f ambient. Stability: RR12 doesnt disintegrate even under extreme operating conditions. 34 in 70 series w/ R12 in 100+ Tucson, AZ summer heat w/ hd-t, w/ 13B-T is was unbearable about 31 at vent w/ R12. Can I use the one for the R-12? Also the new quick connect fittings for the high & low side. It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. As for R134a and R1234yf, theres no room for conversion. Mine was 61, so the system is not working as it is supposed to. -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. I have one can left, so maybe a plan can be made. These differences in the valve size can be attributed to the correlation of the cooling capacity with the enthalpy difference and the mass flow, which in . What is the refrigerant property involved that has caused this? But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. Most of all the differences gravitate to longevity, functionality, and safety. The safe high side pressures are determined with a PT (pressures and temperatures) chart. ambulance tailgate conversion Further production of R12 was banned in some developed countries by the Montreal Protocol because of its harsh effect on the ozone layer. The #1 question asked by NEW MEMBERS. 42 (at best) w/ 134A in 2000 isuzu trooper. Generally you follow the refrigerant flow moving from connection to connection, component to component, and you sniff the a/c vents to check for evaporator leaks as well. Are r12 and r134 fittings different? A comparison between R12 vs. R134a temperature will show that R12 has a higher temperature than R134a. R12 contains a chemical called chlorine that destroys the ozone layer, thereby causing potential environmental risk. Warning: "continue" targeting switch is equivalent to "break".Did you mean to use "continue 2"? Use a strong surfactant like Simple Green or Zep Citrus, and soak the fins on the condensor. The cable is adjustable at the valve arm. The exact amount will vary with each car. Table 1 summarizes the technical characteristics of three potential R134a alternatives. A discussion of the relationship between valve capacities and superheat set-tings can be found in Bulletin 10-9. A lower GWP alternative to R-134a had to be found and thus we have the new 1234yf.
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